Journey to a strong back

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  • DSmallDivideDSmallDivide Posts: 4,565B-Class
    mga sir, im just curious... whats next after strength training? say for example you were able to lift the heaviest weight (PR) at the end of the program, will you try another strength program or repeat? coz in my experience (although i only invented my own program) strength isn't accurate and unpredictable. there are times when you are strong and times when you feel weak. you can factor in whatever reason you have (overtraining, diet,stress, etc.) but our body is simply weird. dont get me wrong, im not against strength training but im just wondering why some lifters think that our body can keep moving forward without hitting a wall.

    if your body cant go forward for now, dont force it. it would be better to be good first at a certain poundage until it feels light (for a few weeks) before adding weight instead of piling the plates just for the sake of having some "gains". breaking your records doesnt always mean you're getting better. if you cant keep it, its not a "gain".

    big dawg is right! in 5 years, you could have become more.

    Big Dawg wrote:

    Obviously it's based for pl. However, he will gain alot more with a more conventional routine. Do you think you gain mass from getting stronger on only those 4 exercises alone? Of course not. Most in pl refer to other exercises out of the big 3 as accessory lifts, but those other lifts, pullups, dips, bb rows, etc pack on alot of size also. Regarding his diet and IF, why the need to go so unorthodox when decades of more conventional eating patterns are tried and proven haha? It appears so many like to try to reinvent the wheel these days. Keep in mind there is a huge difference in addressing a problem of a n00b and a vet - in NO way should he be hitting a "wall" per se at his stage of development.

    Btw I am missing something about all this pl talk and pl lifts - I mean I didn't realize his primary goal was to be a powerlifter. I thought he wanted to add more muscle. Quite a difference, as you already alluded to that a guy can get much stronger and not gain much muscle if he trains specifically for that. However, with MOST, if they get stronger for REPS, ie, 8-10, they will get much bigger. Been there, done that young blood. ;)



    Ok as someone who is mainly into strength training (but not entirely pure strength only since my program also has worksets on a higher rep range for hyperthrophy). To answer Vinch's question, Normally after a certain cycle (and deload be it the "working" kind or complete rest) you usually repeat the same program (but not limited in doing the same movements for assistance routines if your program has any) so what will remain constant is Bench, DL, Squat and OHP normally. Or proceed to another program that will just depend.

    While the main purpose of any strength program is to progress every session as much as possible that is not always the case. one way or another you'll reach a "sticking point" where your progress w/ poundage will be slow or will be at a complete halt while you are in the middle of a training cycle. You can name a lot reasons (or excuses) as to why, Poor nutrition, Poor form, Poor resting habits w/c leads to Poor recovery, etc... (toomuch poor ain't it?) Though in strength training there also many ways in "breaking through that wall" if ever you've hit a plateau when it comes to progress. Like deloading a bit and work your way up again on poundage (it is "somewhat" similar to what vinch has said about get used to a certain weight first then move up once it feels light enough to you) our entire body is one big "adaptive" machine after all.

    breaking your records doesnt always mean you're getting better. if you cant keep it, its not a "gain".

    I wouldn't say entirely that you haven't become "better"or haven't had any gain if you have broken your PRs and unable to manage the same poundage next session due to any reason. I would say though it's a "start" on becoming better you'll just have to be smart enough to find a way to maintain your strength gains. Strength gains are just simply far more difficult to maintain compared to muscle gains while they are practically dependent on almost the same thing (enough rest and food).

    Now as to Big Dawg's points I get where he is coming from. About the difference in training in low reps (Strength) vs high reps (BB Style). While they are 2 entirely different training styles w/ 2 different targeted end results, they can still work hand in hand in order to have a "big and strong" muscular physique. Like what BD pointed out, Powerlifters are not are not just limited to DL,Squat, Bench and OHP when they train to get stronger there are other movements that they do that definitely helps them pack a lot of mass (while mos PLs are not as shredded as your normal BB lifter but they are big nonetheless). Oh and i totally agree w/ BD that if you can add one more rep than what you did last session you have definitely gotten stronger. :)

    @nrg
    Considering the program you've posted, I think everything by far that BD has pointed out makes sense . The results couldv'e been better then again no point crying over spilt milk eh? You might really need to overhaul your entire program one that will really suit to where you really want to be in the long run. I know you've been asking me and the other members on many things on what to do with this and that and we've come to a point that might really something different than what you are currently doing. We can tell you tons of things to do when it comes to programming, in the end it will be up to you whether you take the jump and find what works better for you when it comes to programming or stick to what you have right now and leave everything to luck if it pans out or not. :)


    Oh and just to be clear for the reason why I would normally recommend a newbie to get into strength training first before anything else is to establish their "base strength" and also focus more on the compound lifts. as wel all know getting big and strong requires moving heavy ass weights aside from having an intense workout in order to trigger the adaptive response in our bodies for muscle growth. :) I just don't see the point of doing squats or bench pressing w/ sissy weights for "toning" your muscles (LOL here we go again w/ toning) :P
  • badass_vinchbadass_vinch Posts: 4,462A-Class
    Very good response Sir DS :)

    live&dieNATURAL

  • DSmallDivideDSmallDivide Posts: 4,565B-Class
    hahaha effort sumagot LOL! naka ilang beses ako nagisip as to what i'm applying right now (some i previously read somewhere) sa programming ko and as to what you guys are pointing out w/c is not entirely different in my opinion. while you guys (BD and you for starters) are training on a higher rep range and me (and also some) train on a lower rep range, ang pinaka point is "bust-ass in the gym, trigger the adaptive response of our bodies, rest and eat well lastly be SMART w/ your training". :)
  • nrg500nrg500 Posts: 1,235B-Class
    What training program can you guys recommend that will fit my schedule ?
  • badass_vinchbadass_vinch Posts: 4,462A-Class
    @DS: twice ko nga binasa e kasi baka may mamiss ako hehe

    live&dieNATURAL

  • DSmallDivideDSmallDivide Posts: 4,565B-Class
    actually in my opinion @nrg the prob w/ the current program you have now is it has way too little stimulation when it comes to hypertrophy in order to get big. so my take should you chose to continue this setup of yours, is add assistance routines and do them on a higher rep range (8-10 reps ideally) similar to what i do (not saying you have to copy my program hehehe). When i say assistance routines, movements that complement or has "carry over" w/ your main lifts. That way you can still focus on gaining strength while not entirely compromising getting enough size in your frame in the long run if that's where you want to be.

    Teka anu nga ba talaga ang gusto mong ma achieve? Strength? Size? Baka kasi mamaya bigay kami ng bigay info sayu hindi pala suitable sa goals mo hehehe.
  • nrg500nrg500 Posts: 1,235B-Class
    Both strength and size

    But my priority now is to be able to hit 2x of body weight in conventional dead lift using a rep range of 5 to 8
  • DSmallDivideDSmallDivide Posts: 4,565B-Class
    Ok. my suggestion stands when it comes to your program. there is just way too little movement in order stimulate muscle growth in your body. so in short add a bit more and make sure to pick movements that complements your main lifts and add size to your frame. :)

    let's wait Big dawg and the others chime-in further i'm pretty sure BD has something more to say about it.
  • riddlerriddler Posts: 1,018B-Class
    @nrg,

    Since most of the guys here are already giving out tips on how to modify your training, I'll give you some perspective regarding health, nutrition and overall well-being.

    I saw what you posted regarding your schedule, and damn, you have a very tight and stressful life (at least for now). I assume you are stressed out because of that hectic schedule, aight? Stress is a part of life, that's the truth, but.... did you know that IF is also a stressor? Couple that with training to failure, which is also a stressor, a stressor on top of a stressor on the top of another stressor is a perfect recipe for disaster.

    Our body is equipped with a lot of automatic switches. In that case, too much stress (work, life, training, diet) triggered your CNS overload/fatigue. How to recover? Remove or lessen your stressors. Live a life with less stress. I don't know how long it would take for you to recover, just listen to your body. Always listen to your body.

    Once you are feeling better, then start all over again with your training. I'll bet my ass you will be a better person and would smash and reach your goals better than the last time.

    PEACE OUT!
  • badass_vinchbadass_vinch Posts: 4,462A-Class
    Wala siguro ako macocontribute for your current goal kasi iba ang strength training approach at training na ginagawa ko. Focus ko kasi sa strength is overall strength (speed, muscle endurance, power output, explosiveness, functionality etc.) more like what athletes do. So pretty much a mix of various programs and discipline. Sa diet na lang siguro ako makakatulong sayo bro, either gaining mass or leaning out :) hihirit na lang ako pag may matutulong ako :)

    live&dieNATURAL

  • StannisStannis Posts: 1,377B-Class
    nrg500 wrote:
    Also, the sleeplessness problem (due to CNS fatigue, haven't taken a "real" week off for years)

    Paano nalalaman na CNS Fatigue ang cause?



    riddler wrote:
    did you know that IF is also a stressor?

    Proof? Nag try ka na din ba mag IF? 1 year na akong nag fafast, pero ni minsan di ako na sstress.
    Stress is only in the mind, and we can create our own stress-induced hell by simply perceiving things the wrong way. To deal with stress, don't battle the stressor. Battle your perception.
  • Big DawgBig Dawg Posts: 645
    actually in my opinion @nrg the prob w/ the current program you have now is it has way too little stimulation when it comes to hypertrophy in order to get big. so my take should you chose to continue this setup of yours, is add assistance routines and do them on a higher rep range (8-10 reps ideally) similar to what i do (not saying you have to copy my program hehehe). When i say assistance routines, movements that complement or has "carry over" w/ your main lifts. That way you can still focus on gaining strength while not entirely compromising getting enough size in your frame in the long run if that's where you want to be.

    Teka anu nga ba talaga ang gusto mong ma achieve? Strength? Size? Baka kasi mamaya bigay kami ng bigay info sayu hindi pala suitable sa goals mo hehehe.

    Great input DS. First sentence is spot on, and been my point all along haha. There is no reason nrg can't increase his dead, along with other lifts, and STILL pack on muscle to get to 165. I mean good Lord, powerlifting and bb are interconnected. I hate to put a label on my style of training over the decades, but if I had to do so, it would be power bodybuilding. That's simply going heavy on the mac-daddy lifts, pyramidding up in weight to a heavy set of say 3-5 reps on the last set. All other exercises (assistance work as you pl's like to call it) are also also busted ass on, but for slightly higher reps in the 8-12 range. Example of a power bb chest routine I used witrh great results back in the day - I'll put poundages also to illustrate detail to leave no confusion:

    bb bench press - 135 x 20, 225 x 12, *315 x 10, *365 x 6-7, *405 x 3
    bb incline bench press - 135 x 10, 225 x 10, *315 x 8, *345 x 5-6
    dips - bdwt x 20, *bdwt + 90 x 12, *bdwt + 135 x 8
    flat db flyes - 50's x 15, *80's x 12, *100's x 8-10

    * = worksets

    NOTE: I was never a big flat bencher for my size, hence why incline is almost as strong as flats.

    Simple, old-school pyramidding. Progressive resistance. No rocket science. That's why I hate to even put a name on it haha. You get alot of strength from the low rep work, and you get hypertrophy from the medium rep work.

    If someone wants to go solely for pure powerlifting, I would recommend them to try Westside. They put out more strong mofo's with world records than damn near any other gym in the world. Westside gym is located only about an hour from where I grew up in the US. They implement alot of dynamic work, using bands, chains, etc. Speed training is very important when training for power.

    But sorry for going off point and rambling. Most important is nrg you need to add in more exercsies dude if you want to grow. Even if you don't want to grow, you still need more assistance work. Cgbp, militaries, db presses, bb rows, pullups, skullcrushers, bb curls, (dips but you don't have access). Certainly if your primary focus is increasing your deadlift only, posterior chain work is a must, ie, good mornings, reverse hypers, hamstring work, etc etc. Nrg, if you want to get big with mass being your #1 goal, but with strength also, I will hook you up on a routine. However, if your primary goal is strength strength strength with mass only being secondary, then you can have a powerlifter like DS or Oak hook you up. I think the reason nobody has posted an actual routine yet is bcoz to avoid debates and nitpicks of the routine bcoz nobody still knows what your primary goal is. It will turn into a pl vs bb net-fight without knowing what you most want haha. :p :)
  • StannisStannis Posts: 1,377B-Class

    @ Stannis
    It's most likely. If he hasn't taken a de load in weeks he's overreaching.

    Di pa din nasagot ang tanong ko.
  • riddlerriddler Posts: 1,018B-Class
    Stannis wrote:
    Proof? Nag try ka na din ba mag IF? 1 year na akong nag fafast, pero ni minsan di ako na sstress.

    Read my story on my journal. You'll get your answer. :)

    And for the record, after buying the Renegade Diet by Jason Ferruggia, which is also a form of Intermittent Fasting, I personally consulted with him about my stressful life. He advised me to do the same thing that I have said here. Rest, eliminate/lessen stress, relax, meditate before adding more stressors to your life. It is covered on the book I mentioned above too.

    Another good read/experiment regarding IF which was done by John Berardi. Check Appendix B.
    http://www.precisionnutrition.com/intermittent-fasting
  • @ Stannis
    Umm if he continually powerlifts and sets pr's for weeks on end, he's overtaxing his central nervous system, if this makes it clearer.

    The main thing for powerlifting is to develop strength via a powerful cns.
  • StannisStannis Posts: 1,377B-Class
    Ah ganun ba, basahin ko journal mo. Kaso lately di ako nabibilib kay Ferruggua, dahil ang dami niyang binibenta ngayon na kung anu-ano.

    Edit: Nakita ko pala na address mo as diet ang Fasting, hmmm.

    Ito lang sagot ko sa stress

    Stress is only in the mind, and we can create our own stress-induced hell by simply perceiving things the wrong way. To deal with stress, don't battle the stressor. Battle your perception.
    @ Stannis
    Umm if he continually powerlifts and sets pr's for weeks on end, he's overtaxing his central nervous system, if this makes it clearer.

    The main thing for powerlifting is to develop strength via a powerful cns.

    Kaya nga, pano yun naging reason ng sleeplessness? Di ko naman tinatanong kung paano napagod yung CNS niya.
  • badass_vinchbadass_vinch Posts: 4,462A-Class
    @big dawg: i've already recommended POWER BODYBUILDING to nrg like 2 days ago :)

    live&dieNATURAL

  • @ Stannis
    Sleeplessness could be caused by a lot of things. Overtraining might induce a higher resting heart rate so maybe that's why.
  • StannisStannis Posts: 1,377B-Class
    @ Stannis
    Sleeplessness could be caused by a lot of things. Overtraining might induce a higher resting heart rate so maybe that's why.

    Tungkol naman sa CNS ang tinatanong ko, di heart rate. Tsaka magtanong man ako sa mga nagoovertrain sa gym, yung tipong 3 hours, 5 time a week magWO, malamang lahat sila masarap tulog. Tsaka basic solution sa di makatulog ay mag exercise.

    Hintayin ko na lang sagot ni nrg, baka dahil sa masakit ang CNS?
  • ^
    Ahh okay. Hindi ko ma-gets huhu :-( Yep, hintayin nalang natin si nrg
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